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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:41 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:21 pm
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Location: United States
Hi,

I'll be starting on a new guitar soon with a really lovely Cocobolo B&S set from the Zootman. This Cocobolo set has a very contrasting grain with nice orange & yellow highlights.

I am familiar with the natural darkening of this wood over time and hate to see this "contrasty" look diminish. I already plan to use a wiped-on thinned varnish finish over de-waxed shellac sealer. Does it seem safe to assume that by using a marine spar varnish with UV inhibitors instead of my usual indoor varnish, that the Cocobolo darkening could be slowed or partially eliminated?

It seems logical but logic based on questionable information doesn't always pan out. Any experiences with spar varnish out there?

Also, I'm a bit hesitant to just use my standard LMI white glue - especially for joining the back plates. Any wisdom or experiences about gluing this oily wood?

Thanks,
Skip


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:07 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:58 am
Posts: 552
Location: Canada
Hey Skip;
Whatever finish you choose, I would recommend you avoid spar varnish. Spar varnish is designed to stick to wood which is subject to extreme seasonal changes. The stuff is formulated to stay soft & flexible. The spar varnish I have used remained slightly "sticky" to the touch for a whole summer out in the sun & rain.
Dan'l


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:41 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
Skip,

I've built a few guitars that have coco back and sides, and the one I'm currently working on, in fact, has a set of cocobolo that I bought from Bob. I have also built a couple using padauk for the back/sides material, which definitely darkens over time.

I french polish my guitars. So far, the oldest of them, which is about 1-1/2 years old now, shows no sign of darkening. But then I don't have my guitars sitting out where they are exposed to direct sun.

As for insuring that the glue joints are sound, I wipe the gluing areas of the cocobolo with a swab dunked in denatured alcohol, and wipe the wood until there is no more stain coming off onto the swab. This seems to work just fine.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:39 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:23 am
Posts: 2353
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Daniel M] Hey Skip;
Whatever finish you choose, I would recommend you avoid spar varnish. Spar varnish is designed to stick to wood which is subject to extreme seasonal changes. The stuff is formulated to stay soft & flexible. The spar varnish I have used remained slightly "sticky" to the touch for a whole summer out in the sun & rain.
Dan'l
[/QUOTE]

Daniel is right. Due to the high oil content in Spar Varnish it is a soft finish and in my opinion not suitable for a guitar. Now if you want to leave your guitar outdoors then spar varnish is the way to go and I would finish the interior as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:11 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:42 pm
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Location: Buffalo, NY
First name: Robert
Last Name: Cefalu
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Skip if you want to varnish try Behlens Rock Hard varnish. Some folks are using it with nice results. In fact I think John How is trying it.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:30 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
The extra oil content that keeps 'spar' varnishes soft and compliant (and sticky) also adds a lot of damping. Since one of the nice things about coco is the low damping, why kill it with the wrong varnish? 'Rockhard' is a 'rubbing' varnish, and has much less oil.

I've never used any sort of solvent wipe on oily woods, and they have not given me any more problems in joining than any other wood. I have heard that the solvent simply spreads the oil around on the surface in the thin film, and you can't ever get it all off. Far more important, IMO, is to glue the surface as soon as possible after you work it. It's been found (by the Forest Products Lab) that even a fifteen minute wait gives weaker glue joints. The surface chemistry changes over time.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:46 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:50 am
Posts: 3152
Location: Canada
Skip,

My experience with wood finishing, not guitar related, is that oil based rubbed on finsihes (I use them alot in furniture) will darken your wood almost right away. UV inhibiters are typically just a pigment to act as barrier between the wood and the sun, which will also darken the surface. Lacquers, in my experience, do not 'pop' the figure, visually, as much as oil does (hense my use of oils on furniture) but will leave the wood lighter in colour for much loner than oils.

Shane

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:51 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 161
Location: United States
Hi again,
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful comments & suggestions. It seems the spar varnish was a bad idea after all. It stands to reason that if it worked well, it would have been recommended already in earlier discussions. It certainly makes sense that using a pliable surface finish is unreasonable for a vibrating top or back. Oh well ... it was only a thought.

Also, thank you Bob for your Rockhard varnish suggestion. I've tried Tru-Oil varnish, Minwax Poly, & Waterlox glossy - all as thinned, wipe-on finishes. Waterlox was the most friendly with the best outcome. Maybe I will try the Behlens Rockhard this time.

OK, I've heard that acetone or alcohol treatments will allow an oily wood to bond well using PVA glue. I've also heard that it's not necessary & doesn't matter ... as well that Smith's All Wood Epoxy is the only way to go - especially for critical joins. What joints are non-critical in a guitar?

I might try a test using Michael's alcohol rub advice given above & see how it works compared to Al's "just glue it quick" approach. If both processes provide inferior joints, I'll spring for the extra $24 & get the specialized epoxy. See, I just didn't want to part with the extra cash.

Again, thanks everybody,
Skip

SkipSkip Beach38652.8340046296


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 4217
Location: Buffalo, NY
First name: Robert
Last Name: Cefalu
City: Buffalo
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 14217
Country: US
Skip I would joint the edges by whatever method you chose and then as AL suggests glue up ASAP.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:51 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:52 am
Posts: 334
Location: United States
On back joints only, if I have an oily wood to join, I will use Gorilla glue. It
will bond just about anything to anything. The back joint is one that most
likely will never need unglueing.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:32 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:38 am
Posts: 1059
Location: United States
Regarding the Behlen's rockhard varnish that Bob C. mentions above, interestingly enough, I ran across a listing for it last night in the Fall/Winter Highland Hardware catalog, and was wondering about its suitability for instruments. Well, at least some of my curiousity is satisfied now. But now I'm wondering what the prefered application method is. Is the Behlen's rockhard stuff a rub-on polish? Brush, spray? The Highland Hardware description doesn't say.

Best,

Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:28 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:21 pm
Posts: 161
Location: United States
Michael,

Bruce Sexauer, a pretty well respected luthier, brushes Rock Hard varnish on using a VERY expensive brush & using very good brushing technique. To see an outline of his approach try ...
http://www.13thfret.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=691&highlight =varnish

Others brush it on too & seem to like it pretty well. However, varnish does not burn-in to the preceding coats like nitro or shellac so you need to sand between coats. I've never used it but I have used several other similar varnish products. If the Rock Hard is indeed like other standard varnishes, I bet it would work with this technique:

Try wiping thinned varnish (50/50 varnish & turpentine) on with a lint-free cotton pad, lightly scuff sanding between coats. Level sand every 4-5 coats if needed. Never use the same applicator pad twice. It takes several days at 3 coats a day for a total of around 12 to 15 thin coats - more if you want a heavier build. Patience is necessary & dust is NOT your friend. After a final fine sanding - up to 800 grit or higher (just ignore any minor witness lines), carefully apply two more thinner coats (maybe 1:2 varnish to turps). No more sanding, just let it cure a few weeks & then hand buff or very lightly machine buff with Mcguiers or Novus medium & fine polish. Works pretty well & no spraying!

Skip



Skip Beach38653.5213541667


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:59 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
My cousin has a coco Dred I built him 4 years ago It was French polished and has darkened just slightly and has rarly seen any direct sunlight. But I have to say that all that has happened is it brownd up the redish hue just barely noticable. I actually like the darker color


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:59 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
I've used Rockhard varnish; brushing it on, but with a bit different technique. Some background:

My absolute favorite guitar finish was Mowhawk's '4-hr Rubbing Varnish'. Sadly, they stopped making it a few years ago, after trying a formula change that was NOT satisfactory. I've been looking for a decent replacement since.

The best things about the 4-hr varnish were that it really did dry enough to recoat in four hours (even on BRW!), and that there was almost no problem with 'witness lines'. Those show up when the varnish hardens from the surface down. As you sand through subsequent coats you go from the softer part of the top coat into the hard surface of the one underneath, and there's a shiny line that shows the junction. The Rockhard varnish does show witness lines, but they can be minimised.

There are several tactics that can be used for this. One is to re-coat as soon as possible, so that the stuff underneath isn't too hard on the surface. Another is to add in a little acetone, which helps the new coat to 'bite'. The third is to avoid sanding the final coat if at all possible. The only way to do this is the get the varnish on really level right from the start, although you _can_ sand intermediate coats some. That's the object behind Sexauer's expensive brush; it allows him to spread the stuff out well. Then all you have to worry about (ALL!) is 'sand' (tiny bits of dried varnish from the brush), dust and suicidal bugs.

I thin the varnish out the way violin makers do, with about 25% mineral spirits, and 5% acetone. The acetone, aside from helping it 'bite', 'flashes off' fairly quickly, so that the coat thickens up and is less likely to run. A small amount (a few drops per quart) of kerosene (or spike oil, if you prefer the smell and can afford it) acts as a brushing agent, giving you more time to level the stuff out and helping it to self-level some. I use a common bristle brush, 3-1/2" wide, and _never_ dip more than 1/4 of the bristles into the varnish.

With care, you can get nice level thin coats on this way. The first one takes as much as 12 hours to dry, but after that it will be dry enough to re-coat in four hours. You _must_ recoat it as soon as it's dry enough, but not a moment earlier, to minimise witness lines. If you try to hit it while it's still 'gamey' the brush will stick, and you'll end up with a mess.

With a good, thin, French polish type fill, even on the spruce, I can get a nice finish this way with 5-6 coats, and they are very thin. Sand back each coat lightly with Micromesh, 1800 grit or so, just to knock down the 'sand' and dust. After the first coat do two in a day, or even three if you want to.

Allow the whole thing to settle for a couple of days after the last coat, and then sand back as little as possible. The idea is to only sand into the last few coats you put on, which followed each other closely enough to bond well. If you get witness lines, sand back to level and put on a couple more coats.

It would probably help a lot to wait a month or more to do the final polish. This will allow the film to harden more uniformly, and reduce the 'witness' problem to the minimum.


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